Lemons Tires
Kloth, Gerald
gkloth at agnesscott.edu
Wed Aug 26 10:42:28 CDT 2009
I really like the Nitto Neo-Gens that I put on my car for the convention. Fairly inexpensive from Discount Tire Direct. Much stiffer side wall than the Dunlop Direzza's I had. Better stick in the dry and rain, too. The cheap Direzza's are very predictable but also slide easily. Tread wear on the Nitto's looks good so far for one track day plus 8,000 street miles. Still way more than 1/2 tread left.
Jerry Kloth
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: racing helmet (Tim Rogers)
2. RE: racing helmet (Frey, Richard K)
3. RE: Tire Size (was NX Highway Cruisin') (Ray Kawski)
4. auto-x (was Re: racing helmet) (Jon)
5. LeMons Tires (was Tire Size which was NX Highway Cruisin')
(Grover Pickering)
6. Re: auto-x (was Re: racing helmet) (Tim Rogers)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:39:09 -0400
From: Tim Rogers <timprogers at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: racing helmet
To: se-r list <se-r at se-r-list.org>
Message-ID:
<b8b9d1250908240939p3e630175qead9eb8e6fbb1b76 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
*Rick wrote:*
*IMO, don't buy a helmet with a snell rating. Snell has too rigid of
standards on G forces and to get that standard, the manufacturer needs to
use Styrofoam that is too rigid and won't crush enough and slow the
deacceleration of your brain properly.*
Rick wrote the above as a matter of opinion. Unless Rick wants to let us
know which part of the safety equipment industry he is in and has the
numerical test data to prove the above statement, I suggest that everyone
ignore that statement.
The reason for the upgrading of the stiffness of the foam is this; the foam
in the older helmets actually compressed too much and let the head
essentially come in contact with the shell. Since the usage of the helmet
is based on the idea of the helmet striking something solid (roll bar,
steering wheel, door frame, etc.) then the head was basically striking that
solid object. The stiffer foam does a better job of not over compressing
and cusions the load better in high G impact situations. Just because the
newer Snell rated helmets give better protection in high G impacts does not
mean they give worse protection in low G impacts.
I know the Snell rating system may not be perfect for every accident /
equipment scenario but right now, it is the best we have.
Tim Rogers
On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Frey, Richard K <rfrey at iupui.edu> wrote:
>
> The advice saying you need to try on helmets is right on. Brand is
> insignificant really. Fit is more important. When trying on helmets, grab
> the back of the helmet and see if you can peel it off, forward over your
> head. You'd be surprised at how many helmets can be pulled off that way.
> If you can, obviously it isn't going to work for you. IMO, don't buy a
> helmet with a snell rating. Snell has too rigid of standards on G forces and
> to get that standard, the manufacturer needs to use Styrofoam that is too
> rigid and won't crush enough and slow the deacceleration of your brain
> properly. The motorcycle guys have debated this for awhile and seem to
> prefer DOT or European standards. Interestingly, Snell 2010 standards have
> been relaxed to conform to DOT and European standards, therefore, requiring
> softer Styrofoam. They had to succumb to the argument that their Styrofoam
> was too stiff. Snell 2010 helmets are supposed to be out in October '09.
> Avoid Snell unless its 2010 s
> tandards. Zues, Shark, HJC, Zox, Scorpion are brands that come in for
> lower prices, check 'em out. Obviously, protect your brain, but spending
> money on the name brands doesn't necessarily do that. ECE (euro) standards
> are the most certain but harder to find here the States. If it meets those
> it is a proper helmet IMO. If I were buying a helmet today, I'd seek the ECE
> standard, they're available here. If you can wait for Snell 2010 you'd get
> the safety that is advertised, something a DOT rating might not provide. I
> am also a fan of the plastic shells rather than fiberglass or carbon fiber.
> They're cheaper and dent rather than fracture. You can buy a lot of
> protection for not much cash these days.
>
> The graphics are up to you, :)
>
> rick
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: se-r-bounces at se-r-list.org [mailto:se-r-bounces at se-r-list.org] On
> Behalf Of Jon
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 10:31 PM
> To: se-r list
> Subject: racing helmet
>
> Anyone have a helmet they really like that would be good for auto-x or
> road race events? I have a Shoei motorcycle helmet that I like pretty
> well, but it is time to replace it. I am limited to about an hour in
> most helmets and my forehead starts to get sore. I don't mind spending
> some jack to get something nice... but I don't like putting out money to
> have a name brand on my head.
>
> thanks,
>
> Jon Davis
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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> To modify your subscription, go to
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--
Tim
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:28:18 -0400
From: "Frey, Richard K" <rfrey at iupui.edu>
Subject: RE: racing helmet
To: Tim Rogers <timprogers at gmail.com>, se-r list <se-r at se-r-list.org>
Message-ID:
<7F3A187D01DB574E9A2596D8BDEB21B10D53C48724 at iu-mssg-mbx06.ads.iu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I guess it's a moot point if your sanctioning body requires snell certification. As stated, IMO, 2005 snell standards are too rigid. There doesn't seem to be definitive data that the Drs can look at to see where things really stand and I certainly don't pretend to have info they don't have. I certainly have never held myself out as a safety equipment expert. I am guessing the article George mentions can be found at:
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/motorcycle_helmet_review/index.html
I think it's a 2005 article and therefore dated, but it's a good read and is the basis for my mentioned opinion. I ride a bike, not race a car, so I understand that there might be different goals here as a 300 g helmet strike while on a bike is probably going to be pretty rough on other important internal organs. In a car, you have the luxury of being strapped in and that should help out your torso but might also require hits to the exact same spot of a roll cage, etc. Hopefully you've covered those with the proper type of foam.
I will say that snell has apparently reduced its g standards from 300 gs to 275 gs in the 2010 standards but what's +/- 25 gs to your brain. My main point was that Styrofoam in helmets can be too dense and snell seems to be on board with that thought. Form your own opinions and choose the 2005 or the 2010 standards and by all means ignore mine.
rick
From: se-r-bounces at se-r-list.org [mailto:se-r-bounces at se-r-list.org] On Behalf Of Tim Rogers
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 12:39 PM
To: se-r list
Subject: Re: racing helmet
Rick wrote:
IMO, don't buy a helmet with a snell rating. Snell has too rigid of standards on G forces and to get that standard, the manufacturer needs to use Styrofoam that is too rigid and won't crush enough and slow the deacceleration of your brain properly.
Rick wrote the above as a matter of opinion. Unless Rick wants to let us know which part of the safety equipment industry he is in and has the numerical test data to prove the above statement, I suggest that everyone ignore that statement.
The reason for the upgrading of the stiffness of the foam is this; the foam in the older helmets actually compressed too much and let the head essentially come in contact with the shell. Since the usage of the helmet is based on the idea of the helmet striking something solid (roll bar, steering wheel, door frame, etc.) then the head was basically striking that solid object. The stiffer foam does a better job of not over compressing and cusions the load better in high G impact situations. Just because the newer Snell rated helmets give better protection in high G impacts does not mean they give worse protection in low G impacts.
I know the Snell rating system may not be perfect for every accident / equipment scenario but right now, it is the best we have.
Tim Rogers
On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Frey, Richard K <rfrey at iupui.edu<mailto:rfrey at iupui.edu>> wrote:
The advice saying you need to try on helmets is right on. Brand is insignificant really. Fit is more important. When trying on helmets, grab the back of the helmet and see if you can peel it off, forward over your head. You'd be surprised at how many helmets can be pulled off that way. If you can, obviously it isn't going to work for you. IMO, don't buy a helmet with a snell rating. Snell has too rigid of standards on G forces and to get that standard, the manufacturer needs to use Styrofoam that is too rigid and won't crush enough and slow the deacceleration of your brain properly. The motorcycle guys have debated this for awhile and seem to prefer DOT or European standards. Interestingly, Snell 2010 standards have been relaxed to conform to DOT and European standards, therefore, requiring softer Styrofoam. They had to succumb to the argument that their Styrofoam was too stiff. Snell 2010 helmets are supposed to be out in October '09. Avoid Snell unless its 2010 s
tandards. Zues, Shark, HJC, Zox, Scorpion are brands that come in for lower prices, check 'em out. Obviously, protect your brain, but spending money on the name brands doesn't necessarily do that. ECE (euro) standards are the most certain but harder to find here the States. If it meets those it is a proper helmet IMO. If I were buying a helmet today, I'd seek the ECE standard, they're available here. If you can wait for Snell 2010 you'd get the safety that is advertised, something a DOT rating might not provide. I am also a fan of the plastic shells rather than fiberglass or carbon fiber. They're cheaper and dent rather than fracture. You can buy a lot of protection for not much cash these days.
The graphics are up to you, :)
rick
-----Original Message-----
From: se-r-bounces at se-r-list.org<mailto:se-r-bounces at se-r-list.org> [mailto:se-r-bounces at se-r-list.org<mailto:se-r-bounces at se-r-list.org>] On Behalf Of Jon
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 10:31 PM
To: se-r list
Subject: racing helmet
Anyone have a helmet they really like that would be good for auto-x or
road race events? I have a Shoei motorcycle helmet that I like pretty
well, but it is time to replace it. I am limited to about an hour in
most helmets and my forehead starts to get sore. I don't mind spending
some jack to get something nice... but I don't like putting out money to
have a name brand on my head.
thanks,
Jon Davis
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Tim
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:09:12 -0400
From: Ray Kawski <rkawski at e-rak.com>
Subject: RE: Tire Size (was NX Highway Cruisin')
To: Darren Calbero <DarrenC at ampartners.com>, "se-r at se-r-list.org"
<se-r at se-r-list.org>
Message-ID:
<FB26BA3800409549AAAFA139BAF147676449BE377E at monica.e-rak.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Well keep in mind you need to look at the width of the wheel and the offset of the wheel to determine if it is going to rub. The B14 wheels will clear most 205x50x15's and stock struts if not all. I have not tested hoosiers on stock struts with 205x50x15's as they are probably the widest 205 I've seen to date.
But the Falken Azenis, Hankook RS-2's, and General Exclaim UHP all fit B14 wheels on an SE-R as I've had them all on the car.
I just got the Exclaims as they were about $30/tire cheaper then the Hankooks and they were giving a $50 gift card for buying 4. So for $170 less then the Hankooks it was worth the difference. They are not as stiff as the Hankooks but they are good for just daily driving which my SE-R is for these days.
RK
________________________________________
From: Darren Calbero [DarrenC at ampartners.com]
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 10:52 PM
To: Ray Kawski; se-r at se-r-list.org
Subject: RE: Tire Size (was NX Highway Cruisin')
That may be the case about manliness but that last time a friend of mine
stuck 205/50-14 Nitto Drag Radials, they rubbed the rear fenders. This
may be due to the offset of the B13 SE-R rims but I'm hesitant to try
the B14 rims with a 205 tire.
What's a good tire in a 205/50-15? I'm still leaning toward the
195/55-15 Star Spec due to it's favorable Tire Rack test results and the
desirable feasibility. What say you all?
-----Original Message-----
From: se-r-bounces at se-r-list.org [mailto:se-r-bounces at se-r-list.org] On
Behalf Of Ray Kawski
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 11:59 AM
To: Darren Calbero; 'se-r at se-r-list.org'
Subject: Re: Tire Size (was NX Highway Cruisin')
Get 205x50x15. They clear fine. The size you mentioned will fit but
the 205s are manlier. Lol.
RK
----- Original Message -----
From: se-r-bounces at se-r-list.org <se-r-bounces at se-r-list.org>
To: se-r at se-r-list.org <se-r at se-r-list.org>
Sent: Fri Aug 21 17:54:09 2009
Subject: Tire Size (was NX Highway Cruisin')
Anyone know if a 195/55-15 on a B14 SE-R rim would fit on a B13 with no
problems? I currently have a set of 195/50-15 Bridgestone S-02 on the
rims and I'm planning to replace them with Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star
Spec.
TIA
DC
Chris Scarpulla sr20de at optonline.net
Fri Aug 21 10:47:14 CDT 2009
I know NX's came with 195/55/14 tires but never heard the same for auto
SE-R's.
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 23:32:41 -0400
From: Jon <turboser3006 at verizon.net>
Subject: auto-x (was Re: racing helmet)
To: se-r list <se-r at se-r-list.org>
Message-ID: <4A935B59.1050006 at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I went to the auto-x this weekend. I suppose I should share how I got
there. I was playing GTA4 when it occurred to me a real car would be a
lot more fun. Part of the allure of auto-x (for me) is I can try some
possibly stupid things and the probability of something catastrophic is
near nil. I didn't even clip a cone the whole day. In trying some stupid
things, I like to think I learn something about my car and/or driving in
general that may save my bacon some day. I really want to explore the
limits of my car a bit in a safe, controlled and legal environment...
I had met a coworker who was there driving a Subaru WRX. He was in front
of me on the grid and we were driving our 4th and final run. As I'm
driving about half way through the course, I get red flagged... and it
turns out my coworker had wrecked into a light pole. Noone was
injured... the pole won the contest however and I don't think the WRX
will see the road again. It started to catch fire and they hosed that
chemical powder all through it. I think in the end it was bad course
design, there were several other cars that got close to that pole. The
way it was set up there was a pretty fast slalom at the finish and cars
tended to get sideways there and head for the pole. The incident really
wrecked my mood along with it. I got a rerun, but I just wasn't as into
it. I think he is also going to have a hard time with insurance...
Jon Davis
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 07:35:53 -0500
From: Grover Pickering <groverpickering at gmail.com>
Subject: LeMons Tires (was Tire Size which was NX Highway Cruisin')
To: se-r at se-r-list.org
Message-ID:
<935b86e60908250535x6cb6875fpc58cc3f37a01370b at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Ok, we've been talking Tires for the LeMons car. This topic peaked my
interest.
I've heard the track in Texas (MSR Houston) is pretty easy on tires and you
should be able to go the distance on one set. We'll have a backup set and
possibly some rains.
LeMons racing is probably 8/10's or so most of the time. The idea is to be
competitive - but there at the finish. So, we won't be at the limit for 12
hours straight.
Here are tires that seem popular among the LeMons crowd.
Fuzion ZRi
Falken Azenis-RT615s
General Exclaim UHP
Hankook RS2
Hankook Z212s
We have also noticed the Yokohoma S.Drive, Dunlop Direzza, and BFG G-force
Sport.
I would like a tire that will last with solid grip for a very long time. Be
able to be abused for a time and come back. Have a pretty stiff sidewall
and be predictable. Provide feedback to the driver and allow some
mistakes. Warm up nicely and grip really well when the time comes toward
the end. Have at least ok grip in the rain (not monsoon) so a wet track
doesn't require a tire change. Oh - and cheap :).
Based on Tire Rack feedback. The RS2's seem like the best choice. But, I
wanted to see what experience ya'll had with HPDE or track days with any of
these tires. I realize that I won't get the prefect tire for $75 - but
LeMons really doesn't require perfection as much as reliability.
Thoughts?
Grover
On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Ray Kawski <rkawski at e-rak.com> wrote:
> But the Falken Azenis, Hankook RS-2's, and General Exclaim UHP all fit B14
> wheels on an SE-R as I've had them all on the car.
>
> I just got the Exclaims as they were about $30/tire cheaper then the
> Hankooks and they were giving a $50 gift card for buying 4. So for $170
> less then the Hankooks it was worth the difference.
>
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:59:27 -0400
From: Tim Rogers <timprogers at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: auto-x (was Re: racing helmet)
To: Jon <turboser3006 at verizon.net>
Cc: se-r list <se-r at se-r-list.org>
Message-ID:
<b8b9d1250908250859n3f79b4b4n5898aae65e1f1589 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Jon,
Who sanctioned the auto-x?
Tim Rogers
On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:32 PM, Jon <turboser3006 at verizon.net> wrote:
> I went to the auto-x this weekend. I suppose I should share how I got
> there. I was playing GTA4 when it occurred to me a real car would be a
> lot more fun. Part of the allure of auto-x (for me) is I can try some
> possibly stupid things and the probability of something catastrophic is
> near nil. I didn't even clip a cone the whole day. In trying some stupid
> things, I like to think I learn something about my car and/or driving in
> general that may save my bacon some day. I really want to explore the
> limits of my car a bit in a safe, controlled and legal environment...
>
> I had met a coworker who was there driving a Subaru WRX. He was in front
> of me on the grid and we were driving our 4th and final run. As I'm
> driving about half way through the course, I get red flagged... and it
> turns out my coworker had wrecked into a light pole. Noone was
> injured... the pole won the contest however and I don't think the WRX
> will see the road again. It started to catch fire and they hosed that
> chemical powder all through it. I think in the end it was bad course
> design, there were several other cars that got close to that pole. The
> way it was set up there was a pretty fast slalom at the finish and cars
> tended to get sideways there and head for the pole. The incident really
> wrecked my mood along with it. I got a rerun, but I just wasn't as into
> it. I think he is also going to have a hard time with insurance...
>
> Jon Davis
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
> The mailing list home page is http://www.se-r-list.org/
> To modify your subscription, go to
> http://www.se-r-list.org/mailman/listinfo/se-r
>
--
Tim
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